[TROM1] Animal Postulates

David Pelly dpelly at execulink.com
Sun Aug 9 23:35:05 UTC 2009

Hi Pru,

On 9-Aug-09, at 6:26 PM, Pru Joy wrote:

> *************
> The following message is relayed to you by  trom at lists.newciv.org
> ************
> Thank you for posing this question David - it is giving my brain a bit 
> of a
> workout (which it needs!)

Yes, without good mental workouts I go nuts.

  The TROM:   RI  "Create something"  -  is a special type of work out.  
> So firstly both examples, the cat & the baby, that Dennis gives are 
> "pro
> survival" the only difference being for the cat it is a "learnt" 
> response &
> for the "baby" it is pure instinct.

So  who "learnt " ....  that cat?   In other words: who taught the cat>

Is not the cat operating on the trainer's postulate, which  is the 
trainer's  " PD  postulate"  to/ for  the cat?

Would that be called:  "to know"?

The cat  that was trained to " want a saucer of milk"  and " a warm 
home" ,  is the effect of the trainer?

Is this not correct?
> A "wild" animal on the other hand has no "learnt" response to behaving 
> in a
> certain way to receive food from a human, so it is also pure instinct 
> that,
> in fact, it may actually see the potential of the human being it's 
> food - ha
> ha! - and have a SD postulate of eating you!  (And I guess his PD 
> would be
> that you "be his food".)

I think so.
> The cat has learnt

Is not his  learning an effect of being taught by his trainer?

> how to behave to receive food & thus it does have a SD

The PD of the trainer has become the SD  for the cat.  Right?  or wrong?
>  to
> make this known with a PD of you knowing it (his desire to eat).

I think this is correct?
> The baby's instincts tell him he better yell loud if he wants to 
> receive
> attention & so his SD & PD is the same as the cats - so yes, Dennis was
> correct as per my understanding of it.
> Maybe Dennis's choice of "stray" cat throws the example "out" a bit - 
> as it
> is quite likely that a stray cat

I understood it as an already trained  stray cat  who knew how, ( was 
trained)  to want a saucer of milk  and saw a human and sent the human 
his  trained ( adopted? effect)  postulate.

> has never learnt how to "behave" around
> humans to receive food & in fact, may actually see them as "anti 
> survival" &
> run like the dickens.
> I found this quote a great assistance in sorting this little puzzle 
> out:
> "A game, then, can be regarded as a conflict of postulates wherein a 
> being
> endeavors to convince his opponent of his own ( PD ) postulate, while
> resisting the ( PD ) postulate arrayed against him. All games, despite 
> their
> seeming complexity, can be reduced to this basic simplicity and thus
> understood."

I  would think that  the
complete cycle  in the case of an untamed cat  would be:


1. Must be known.                          must know

Trainer's SD;  I am the boss, or I am your master.

Trainer's postulate  PD  for cat,  this is how I want you to behave for 
me, you are my cat, I want you to  be nice and eat this milk  and stay 
in my house and be my pet.

Trainer to cat:  you :   "must know"  how to eat this milk., be nice, 
live in my house, be my pet so I can pet you and play with you, so you 
can be a sink ( a  key out ) for my insecurities and neurotic problems. 

2. Must not be known.                   must not know

Cat is at  first ( SD ) not cooperative, which would be " I must not 
know"  how to eat your milk, and be your pet.  ( I do not want to eat 
your milk, live in your house, and be your pet.  Cat does not want to 
be effect of master human.)

Cat's PD  is;  you must not tell me how to behave or what to do for 
you.   I will  rebel.  Or I will run away.

3. Must know.                                  must be known

Trainer says, I am boss  SD    PD  yes you are my cat and you must eat 
this milk and be a good cat, and live in my house and be my pet.
Trainer wants  cat to know that it must be known that you are you are 
my cat and that you must eat my milk.  etc.

4. Must not know. 	                     must not be known

Cat's innate untamed independent SD  postulate is now broken  (must not 
be known)  that I am actually an independent wild cat, but now I am 
operating on your postulate which is to be a good cat and eat your 
milk, etc.

I cannot figure out what the cat's PD  is.

I would like to hear from some TROMMERS  who have got this thing 
figured out.

Have I got this right as far as I went?  Then if  not, what is the 
correct and complete process?


> PJ
> --

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