[TROM1] Janet

David Pelly dpelly at execulink.com
Tue Aug 4 13:06:39 UTC 2009


HI Janet,

Yes, I have questions.

But I am going to reread the book first.

Thanks,

David



On 2-Aug-09, at 9:34 PM, Janet wrote:

> *************
> The following message is relayed to you by  trom at lists.newciv.org
> ************
>
> David,
>  
> The question about being clear about Level 4 should have been more 
> like, “Do you have any questions about Level 4?”
>  
> Keep On TROMing,
> Janet
>  
>
> From: trom-bounces at lists.newciv.org 
> [mailto:trom-bounces at lists.newciv.org] On Behalf Of David Pelly
> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:58 PM
> To: The Resolution of Mind list
> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Question / correction
>  
>
>
>  Hi Janet,
>
>  I acknowledge and thank you for your comments. They are appreciated.
>
>  SEE MORE REPLY INTERSPERSED;
>
>  On 2-Aug-09, at 8:31 PM, Janet wrote:
> *************
>  The following message is relayed to you by trom at lists.newciv.org
>  ************
>
>  Hi, David,
>   
>  Just a few comments.
>   
>  1 - Happy to hear that you have been working on TROM and getting rid 
> of charge. 
>   
>  2 – You say that you have done Level 2 and perhaps Level 3.  The next 
> level, Level 4 is the “systematic discharge of the eight classes of 
> overwhelm”.  So it would appear that you have some time before needing 
> to be totally clear on the 4 legs of the postulate chart for Level 5.  
> And in fact Level 4 may help with understanding the Postulate Chart 
> and Level 5. 
>
>
>
>  I THINK I AM ABOUT THERE SOMEWHERE.
> At this point are you clear about Level 4?
>
>  NO. FAR FROM CLEAR.
>
>  THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF MY INQUIRY.
>
>  I AM GOING TO REREAD THE DATA.
>  
>  “LEVEL 4
>>
>>   
>>  Purpose: The systematic discharge of the eight classes of overwhelm.
>>
>
>  I HAVE HAD LOTS OF OVERWHELMS.
>
>  IT IS ALSO OVERWHELMING TO READ TROM. : )
>
> (A start in the direction of having the enviroment loose its power to 
> restimulate your mind by preparing you to become an expert in games 
> play by taking a look at the subject of overwhelms and freeing you up 
> thus untying a lot of your 'livingness'). Vanishing another large and 
> unwanted chunk of your mind.”
>   
>  3 – A note on getting auditing.  I have had a bit of Scn auditing and 
> delivered a couple hundred hours of what in Scn is called “Book 1” 
> auditing.  Everyone has unique yet similar responses to auditing, 
> regardless of whether it is the auditor-delivered or self-delivered.  
> I probably drove my auditors a bit crazy, because I would usually have 
> the biggest cognitions out of session – hours or even days later.  
> That still happens with my self-delivered sessions.  (But that does 
> not drive my current auditor crazy.)  Having charge release while not 
> in session might seem a bit unusual to an other-than-self auditor.  
> But having cognitions and charge release are usual responses to 
> appropriate auditing.
>
>
>  IT IS GOOD TO HEAR OF YOUR " DIFFERENT " EXPERIENCES.
>
>  FROM MY EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATIONS STANDARD TECH DOES NOT WORK ON 
> EVERY ONE.
>
>  BUT THERE HAS TO BE AN ANSWER TO EVERY PROBLEM. THERE HAS TO BE A WAY 
> OUT.
>
>  I AM OPTIMISTIC ON THAT FRONT.
>
>  
>  4 – About the lack of response from the auditor when you stated that 
> “it feels like he was processing someone ‘other’ than me, and I was 
> not making gains”.  Auditors are trained (at least when I was trained) 
> to respond to originations form the pre-clear but not to comments. 
>
>
>
>  YES, TRAINED TO BE ROBOTS.
>
>  FEW IF ANY ARE CAPABLE OF GENERATING AN ORIGINAL THOUGHT, OR 
> INDEPENDENT CRITICAL, SCRUTINIZING, EVALUATIVE THOUGHT.
>
>
>  THANKS AGAIN. ANY FURTHER ADVICE WOULD BE WELCOME.
>
>  DAVID
>
>
> This is not to defend or accuse anyone, just a statement of what the 
> training was and what might have been going on..
>   
>  Keep on TROMing,
>  Janet
>   
>
> From:trom-bounces at lists.newciv.org 
> [mailto:trom-bounces at lists.newciv.org] On Behalf Of David Pelly
> Sent:Sunday, August 02, 2009 1:42 PM
> To:The Resolution of Mind list
> Subject:[TROM1] Question / correction
>   
>
>
>
>
>  Hi Martin,
>
>  (and other TROMERS as well) ,
>
>  Thank you very much for your reply.
>
>  I have been busy with other things since you ( Martin) wrote, but 
> meanwhile I have been thinking a lot about TROM and your data.
>
>  I can't say that I am able to really make the connection to my own 
> case or wrap my mind around the concept of the four "know" legs and 
> finding postulates ( or put something that is very ambiguous or 
> nebulous, into handle- able form , by that I mean finding a; "some 
> aspect of know datum or postulate to work with" and how to delete or 
> change them.
>
>  SO HERE IS WHAT I WILL DO:
>
>  I will put my case on the table..... for group " in class" handling. 
> A little like medical students getting a cadaver to work on in class. 
> Or maybe, more like chiropractic students or nurses working on each 
> other in training.
>
>
>  Maybe others can help and learn something at the same time.
>
>
>  I spent most of my life being abused, being criticized, made wrong, 
> invalidated, being picked on, being laughed at, being a victim, being 
> PTS, ( a Potential Trouble Source) being a loser, being a jinx, being 
> accident prone, screwing things up, pissing people off, being a 
> lightening rod, committing overts, not being able to hold a job , 
> usually not more than a few months, getting fired, and etc., 
> ........... if..... there is anything else, it doesn't come to mind, 
> at the moment.
>
>  ( I have been fired from pretty well every job that I had, and most 
> jobs seldom lasted more than a few months. )
>
>  This pattern of destruction started when I was a child, by my father, 
> and continued all my life, in different forms.
>
>  In pretty well every situation, I would tend to; sooner or later 
> would attract people that would sooner or later invalidate me and 
> abuse me, make me wrong, etc. ( I ran into a couple of really bad ones 
> in the last year. ) ( and worked for a very, very, very bad one from 
> 91 to 94, who just about killed me, via the criticism and 
> invalidation, and witch hunting and shitting on my work. )
>
>  I also suffer from a condition where I fall asleep several times a 
> day, ( amount and severity is relative to the amount of stress that I 
> am under ) and disorientation, and anxiety, and have been diagnosed by 
> my doctor and psychologist as having schitzotipal personality disorder 
> and have applied for disability pension. The fatigue problem started 
> about 14 or 15 yrs of age.
>
>
>
>
>  Would that ( those problems ) fall under " being not known" ?
>
>  I think I can see a bit of that, (meaning how " made wrong" ( 
> translates into "not known") and I mean only a tiny bit, ( that is as 
> far as it goes) ( but how to see the entire process, as Dennis 
> explains, I do not see) and I can't really make any connection in the 
> other flows or legs, or how the other legs fit in.
>
>  And if these " made wrongs" are; ..... the same as ; " made not 
> knowns", ....... what do I do with them?
>
>  The " made wrong" , was so destructive, that my original self was 
> destroyed very early and I have spent much of this life trying to be " 
> someone" that others could accept. I really became aware of taking on 
> many valences through out my life, soon after I got into scio, once I 
> understood the process.
>
>  The first efforts to adopt valences, were, when I was in my early 
> teens. After being severely beaten by father starting before I was 5 
> yrs ( for getting my new shoes wet in the grass after a rain) and 
> having the beatings, ( for various other things, ) continued from time 
> to time until about 15.
>
>  ( The way I see myself after that first beating is as : " as part of 
> me died that day).
>
>  Then mainly only the psychological abuse/ suppression continued after 
> that. ( I was to big to beat up. )
>  My dad wanted to make me good.
>
>  All the while the beating years were occurring I was also programmed 
> with unworkable life handling data that contributed to my being 
> dysfunctional
>
>  I remember the first efforts of trying to be someone else ( trying to 
> find a suitable valence) at about 12 or 14 yrs of age. I tried being 
> several different people and also (later) identities I made up myself, 
> like being knowledgeable about things, ( which caused me to be called 
> a know it all) ( and also a jokester character) .
>
>  Then I was made fun of or ridiculed for doing trying to be someone 
> else, by neighbors kids, relatives and others.
>
>  So as a result of this " made wrong" stuff , my life has been one of 
> : can't work well, can't hold a job, being a drifter, can't do any 
> thing right, can't have money, can't have a relationship, can't get 
> along well with people, can't, can't , can't.... . It takes a lot of 
> effort for me to do much of anything, if I am able to do it at all.
>
>  Today at 57 , like they say: I do not have a pot to pee in.
>
>  My friend, a few years ago, said in frustration, (out of many failed 
> attempts to help me), .... that " it looks like I have a death wish" .
>
>  I was heavy into personal development and self help, self psychology, 
> various religions, and several alternative healing modalities ( I was 
> a self help junkie ) from about 20 years of age, until I got into scio 
> in 97 . ( Since then I have been a scientology junkie. I have not done 
> any official bridge, but by judging products of the bridge, it is 
> apparent that it is not complete. ) ( I have basically only read all 
> the scio texts.)
>
>  So I worked hard to put on a valence, actually several valences, and 
> I think quite complex valences, in order to survive to this point.
>
>  As I mentioned above, one valence I took on was one of to be "to know 
> something" to substitute for being smart, and intelligent ( instead of 
> being stupid ) I studied everything that was important to life; 
> religion, spirituality, philosophy, health, and related stuff. Being 
> born and raised on a farm and loving farming and being a farmer at 
> heart, I studied sustainable soil and crop science. The others were to 
> "be funny", be "a smart ass" .
>
>  I have been spitefully called a " know it all" several times, and 
> probably thought of being; a know it all " by many, but not expressed.
>
>
>  For some humor; .... to those I say, it is not that I know so much, 
> it is that they know so little. : )
>
>  So today, I "know everything" but can't do much of anything that 
> amounts to anything.
>
>
>
>  ( Note: During much of the scio processing I had, since I got into 
> scio in 1997, I often complained to the auditor (s), that it feels 
> like he was processing someone "other" than me, and I was not making 
> gains. He (they) had no comment, as if it went over their heads )
>
>  In TROM this valence/ postulate thing, becomes particularly 
> interesting and so my hopes are raised.
>
>  One thing that appears evident to me is that I am at the bottom of 
> the downward spiral; "can't do much of anything".
>
>
>
>
>  Over the last month or so, I think I have done most of level two, and 
> I think; level three of TROM, just by being aware of releasing and 
> looking at incidents and if an incident or rather a pattern or 
> condition of anxiety, and related emotional disorders; "charge', would 
> be restimulated, I would become aware of it and consciously release 
> it, and it would release in great measure. This would occur while I 
> was carrying on with my daily activities.
>
>  Primarily while going for walks. I would connect with charge and it 
> would release like volcanoes. This went on daily, for over a week.
>
>  This went on with such intensity that I had no time for so called 
> "time breaking", nor were there always any incidents in view, just a 
> lot of charge.
>
>  I would just be conscious of what was going on and be aware of 
> present time and my environment.
>
>  I was surprised that all this charge was not released by auditing.
>
>  There is still some charge left, but it does not usually come up, 
> except when I am in an restimulative environment.
>
>  I think this charge build up, over the years, is what caused stomach 
> ulcers and an abdominal hernia, around five or six years ago and 
> continue to this day. These are very painful and problematic.
>
>  This was quite beneficial. My ulcers and hernia are now not as 
> reactive, meaning do not flare up as much.
>
>  That part, for now at least, feels better.
>
>
>
>  So do you have any insights or ideas of how I could handle these 
> matters with TROM?
>
>  If anyone has any questions, please ask. You are my assistant TROM 
> auditors.
>
>  I welcome any comments and suggestions from any one.
>
>
>  I gather this TROM is not anywhere as easy as Dennis implies. I 
> gather and get the impression that at least a few very experienced 
> scios, have tried it and gave up.
>
>  I want to give it an honest effort and an honest chance. Because it 
> sounds right and I see no reason why it should not work.
>
>  But maybe in some tough cases, contrary to Dennis' words, a person 
> needs a bit of auditor type help for level 2 and 3.
>
>
>
>  Or is this really just some flow of consciousness, of Dennis'? Which 
> sounds good and has become another bait and trap for us?
>
>  Is there anyone that has successfully completed the process?
>
>  If there are any, your help would sure be appreciated.
>
>
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On 26-Jul-09, at 2:12 PM, Martin Foster wrote:
>  *************
>  The following message is relayed to you by trom at lists.newciv.org
>  ************
>  Hi David,
>
>  As they are self determined postulates - you are only looking at one 
> end of the comm line:  On the other end are the pan-determined PD 
> postulates.
>
>          SD                                    PD
>  1. Must be known.          3. Must know
>  2. Must not be known.     4. Must not know.
>  R E V E R S A L
>  1R. Must know.                 3R. Must be known.
>  2R. Must not know.           4R. Must not be known
>
>  In above the SD-and the opposite or "In line" PD- are complementary 
> and therefore - No game. Which is what you give in 1 - 3 and 2 -4 - No 
> game
>
>  I've placed "reversal" between 2 and 3 above as those are the reverse 
> complementary postulates.
>
>  The conflicting postulates are  1 and 4 ---- and 2 and 3.
>
>  Games are created with conflicting postulates not complementary 
> postulates.
>
>  So if you look at either the SD side or the PD side you can get the 
> idea of  what you intend and originate from the SD view and what you 
> intend to occur on the PD side.
>
>  Example of the postulates - Please note - this isn't an example of 
> the effects occurring in the mind:
>
>  A news-reporter wants to reveal some torture he suspects occurring in 
> the military. (Must know -3) plus (Must be known -1)
>  A soldier wants him to know about the torture (Must be known 1) and 
> informs him. - No game between soldier and reporter
>  BUT
>  Someone in the military does not want this known and forbids 
> publication and threatens him (Must not be known -2) 
>  He now wants to find out who this person is (Must know -3) 
>  The military forbids all soldiers from speaking to the press (Must 
> not know -4 and Must not be known -2)
>
>  If the reporter gets all revealed - he achieves his goal - but if 
> overwhelmed by an intimidating, pro military Editor then he may become 
> the (2 -Mustn't be known) in the excerpt below.
>
>  I'm certain you get the drift now?
>
>  Further in TROM - you will find the following - It helps to read 
> TROM  a few times through:  I have added emphasis & numbering:
>
>  ((((((People do tend - repeat tend - to become more or less fixed in 
> one or other of the legs of the basic game, and take on the 
> personality characteristics of the postulate they are dramatizing. 
> Viz:
>
> 1. Must be known. Outflowing. Extrovert. Persuasive. Creative. Often 
> prone to jealousy. Overts by infliction, and very upset by rejection. 
> He got into this leg by being overwhelmed by a Must Be Known, whose 
> valence he now occupies.
>
> 2.Mustn’t be known.Restrained outflow. Retiring. Devious. Secretive. 
> Obsessed by ‘privacy’. Tends to collect mass and wealth by the simple 
> expedient of not being able to outflow it. Overts by deprivation, and 
> very worried by the thought of their secret wheeler-dealings being 
> revealed. He got into this leg
>  by being overwhelmed by a Mustn’t know while being in the Must be 
> known leg; he now dramatizes the Mustn’t be known PD postulate of his 
> overwhelmer.
>
> 3. Must know. Inflow. Nosey. Curious. Inclined to he highly sensual. 
> Demands open comm lines. Hates secrets, and loves exposing them. Good 
> solver of puzzles. Overts by revelation, and just hates being deprived 
> of things. He got into this leg by being overwhelmed by a Must know, 
> whose valence he now occupies.
>
> 4. Mustn’t know. Restrained inflow. Rejection. Compulsively makes 
> nothing out of things. Destructive. Overts by rejection, and dreads 
> having anything inflicted upon him. Contrary to popular opinion he did 
> not get this way by having things forced upon him. He got into this 
> leg by being overwhelmed by a Mustn’t be known while being in the Must 
> know leg; he now dramatizes the Mustn’t know PD postulate of his 
> overwhelmer. He’s been overwhelmed by deprivation.
>
>  Most people are a composite of the above types, but you will come 
> across an almost ‘pure’ type occasionally. Generally speaking, the 
> more inflexible the personality, the more it will tend towards a 
> ‘pure’ type. It can also be seen that the class of motivators the 
> being complains of not only tells you the type of overts he 
> compulsively commits, the leg of the basic game he is dramatizing, but 
> also just how he got into that leg. Thus, the data is of inestimable 
> value when dealing with the mind.))))))
>
>  Martin
>
>  David Pelly wrote:*************
> The following message is relayed to you by trom at lists.newciv.org
> ************
> Sorry, the first letter was sent by mistake
>
>
> To anyone who can,
>
> I copied the following from Dennis' theory transcript page:
>
> Quote:
>
> Collecting and numbering our four basic SD postulates we get:
>
> 1. Must be known. 3. Must know.
> 2. Must not be known. 4. Must not know.
>
> End of quote
>
>
> Can someone please give me a typical real life example of a game that
> would consist of:
>
> 1 and 3
>
> 2 and 4
>
> and so forth,
>
> and how it progresses down the dwindling spiral"
>
> Thanks
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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