[TROM1] Question / correction

David Pelly dpelly at execulink.com
Mon Aug 3 00:57:44 UTC 2009


Hi Janet,

I acknowledge and thank   you for your comments.  They are appreciated.

  SEE MORE REPLY  INTERSPERSED;

On 2-Aug-09, at 8:31 PM, Janet wrote:

> *************
> The following message is relayed to you by  trom at lists.newciv.org
> ************
>
> Hi, David,
>  
> Just a few comments.
>  
> 1 - Happy to hear that you have been working on TROM and getting rid 
> of charge. 
>  
> 2 – You say that you have done Level 2 and perhaps Level 3.  The next 
> level, Level 4 is the “systematic discharge of the eight classes of 
> overwhelm”.  So it would appear that you have some time before needing 
> to be totally clear on the 4 legs of the postulate chart for Level 5.  
> And in fact Level 4 may help with understanding the Postulate Chart 
> and Level 5. 

I THINK I  AM ABOUT THERE SOMEWHERE.

>  At this point are you clear about Level 4?

NO. FAR FROM CLEAR.

THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF MY INQUIRY.

I AM GOING TO REREAD THE DATA.
>  
> “LEVEL 4
>  
> Purpose: The systematic discharge of the eight classes of overwhelm.

I HAVE HAD  LOTS OF OVERWHELMS.

IT IS ALSO OVERWHELMING TO READ TROM.  : )


> (A start in the direction of having the enviroment loose its power to 
> restimulate your mind by preparing you to become an expert in games 
> play by taking a look at the subject of overwhelms and freeing you up 
> thus untying a lot of your 'livingness'). Vanishing another large and 
> unwanted chunk of your mind.”
>  
> 3 – A note on getting auditing.  I have had a bit of Scn auditing and 
> delivered a couple hundred hours of what in Scn is called “Book 1” 
> auditing.  Everyone has unique yet similar responses to auditing, 
> regardless of whether it is the auditor-delivered or self-delivered.  
> I probably drove my auditors a bit crazy, because I would usually have 
> the biggest cognitions out of session – hours or even days later.  
> That still happens with my self-delivered sessions.  (But that does 
> not drive my current auditor crazy.)  Having charge release while not 
> in session might seem a bit unusual to an other-than-self auditor.  
> But having cognitions and charge release are usual responses to 
> appropriate auditing.

IT IS GOOD TO HEAR OF YOUR " DIFFERENT " EXPERIENCES.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATIONS STANDARD TECH DOES NOT WORK ON 
EVERY ONE.

BUT THERE HAS TO BE AN ANSWER TO EVERY PROBLEM.  THERE HAS TO BE A WAY 
OUT.

I AM OPTIMISTIC ON THAT FRONT.


>  
> 4 – About the lack of response from the auditor when you stated that 
> “it feels like he was processing someone ‘other’ than me, and I was 
> not making gains”.  Auditors are trained (at least when I was trained) 
> to respond to originations form the pre-clear but not to comments. 

YES,  TRAINED TO BE ROBOTS.

FEW IF ANY ARE CAPABLE OF GENERATING AN ORIGINAL THOUGHT,  OR 
INDEPENDENT CRITICAL, SCRUTINIZING, EVALUATIVE  THOUGHT.


THANKS AGAIN.  ANY FURTHER ADVICE WOULD BE WELCOME.

DAVID



>  This is not to defend or accuse anyone, just a statement of what the 
> training was and what might have been going on..
>  
> Keep on TROMing,
> Janet
>  
>
> From: trom-bounces at lists.newciv.org 
> [mailto:trom-bounces at lists.newciv.org] On Behalf Of David Pelly
> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 1:42 PM
> To: The Resolution of Mind list
> Subject: [TROM1] Question / correction
>  
>
>
>
>
>  Hi Martin,
>
>  (and other TROMERS as well) ,
>
>  Thank you very much for your reply.
>
>  I have been busy with other things since you ( Martin) wrote, but 
> meanwhile I have been thinking a lot about TROM and your data.
>
>  I can't say that I am able to really make the connection to my own 
> case or wrap my mind around the concept of the four "know" legs and 
> finding postulates ( or put something that is very ambiguous or 
> nebulous, into handle- able form , by that I mean finding a; "some 
> aspect of know datum or postulate to work with" and how to delete or 
> change them.
>
>  SO HERE IS WHAT I WILL DO:
>
>  I will put my case on the table..... for group " in class" handling. 
> A little like medical students getting a cadaver to work on in class. 
> Or maybe, more like chiropractic students or nurses working on each 
> other in training.
>
>
>  Maybe others can help and learn something at the same time.
>
>
>  I spent most of my life being abused, being criticized, made wrong, 
> invalidated, being picked on, being laughed at, being a victim, being 
> PTS, ( a Potential Trouble Source) being a loser, being a jinx, being 
> accident prone, screwing things up, pissing people off, being a 
> lightening rod, committing overts, not being able to hold a job , 
> usually not more than a few months, getting fired, and etc., 
> ............ if..... there is anything else, it doesn't come to mind, 
> at the moment.
>
>  ( I have been fired from pretty well every job that I had, and most 
> jobs seldom lasted more than a few months. )
>
>  This pattern of destruction started when I was a child, by my father, 
> and continued all my life, in different forms.
>
>  In pretty well every situation, I would tend to; sooner or later 
> would attract people that would sooner or later invalidate me and 
> abuse me, make me wrong, etc. ( I ran into a couple of really bad ones 
> in the last year. ) ( and worked for a very, very, very bad one from 
> 91 to 94, who just about killed me, via the criticism and 
> invalidation, and witch hunting and shitting on my work. )
>
>  I also suffer from a condition where I fall asleep several times a 
> day, ( amount and severity is relative to the amount of stress that I 
> am under ) and disorientation, and anxiety, and have been diagnosed by 
> my doctor and psychologist as having schitzotipal personality disorder 
> and have applied for disability pension. The fatigue problem started 
> about 14 or 15 yrs of age.
>
>
>
>
>  Would that ( those problems ) fall under " being not known" ?
>
>  I think I can see a bit of that, (meaning how " made wrong" ( 
> translates into "not known") and I mean only a tiny bit, ( that is as 
> far as it goes) ( but how to see the entire process, as Dennis 
> explains, I do not see) and I can't really make any connection in the 
> other flows or legs, or how the other legs fit in.
>
>  And if these " made wrongs" are; ..... the same as ; " made not 
> knowns", ........ what do I do with them?
>
>  The " made wrong" , was so destructive, that my original self was 
> destroyed very early and I have spent much of this life trying to be " 
> someone" that others could accept. I really became aware of taking on 
> many valences through out my life, soon after I got into scio, once I 
> understood the process.
>
>  The first efforts to adopt valences, were, when I was in my early 
> teens. After being severely beaten by father starting before I was 5 
> yrs ( for getting my new shoes wet in the grass after a rain) and 
> having the beatings, ( for various other things, ) continued from time 
> to time until about 15.
>
>  ( The way I see myself after that first beating is as : " as part of 
> me died that day).
>
>  Then mainly only the psychological abuse/ suppression continued after 
> that. ( I was to big to beat up. )
>  My dad wanted to make me good.
>
>  All the while the beating years were occurring I was also programmed 
> with unworkable life handling data that contributed to my being 
> dysfunctional
>
>  I remember the first efforts of trying to be someone else ( trying to 
> find a suitable valence) at about 12 or 14 yrs of age. I tried being 
> several different people and also (later) identities I made up myself, 
> like being knowledgeable about things, ( which caused me to be called 
> a know it all) ( and also a jokester character) .
>
>  Then I was made fun of or ridiculed for doing trying to be someone 
> else, by neighbors kids, relatives and others.
>
>  So as a result of this " made wrong" stuff , my life has been one of 
> : can't work well, can't hold a job, being a drifter, can't do any 
> thing right, can't have money, can't have a relationship, can't get 
> along well with people, can't, can't , can't.... . It takes a lot of 
> effort for me to do much of anything, if I am able to do it at all.
>
>  Today at 57 , like they say: I do not have a pot to pee in.
>
>  My friend, a few years ago, said in frustration, (out of many failed 
> attempts to help me), ..... that " it looks like I have a death wish" 
> .
>
>  I was heavy into personal development and self help, self psychology, 
> various religions, and several alternative healing modalities ( I was 
> a self help junkie ) from about 20 years of age, until I got into scio 
> in 97 . ( Since then I have been a scientology junkie. I have not done 
> any official bridge, but by judging products of the bridge, it is 
> apparent that it is not complete. ) ( I have basically only read all 
> the scio texts.)
>
>  So I worked hard to put on a valence, actually several valences, and 
> I think quite complex valences, in order to survive to this point.
>
>  As I mentioned above, one valence I took on was one of to be "to know 
> something" to substitute for being smart, and intelligent ( instead of 
> being stupid ) . I studied everything that was important to life; 
> religion, spirituality, philosophy, health, and related stuff. Being 
> born and raised on a farm and loving farming and being a farmer at 
> heart, I studied sustainable soil and crop science. The others were to 
> "be funny", be "a smart ass" .
>
>  I have been spitefully called a " know it all" several times, and 
> probably thought of being; a know it all " by many, but not expressed.
>
>
>  For some humor; ..... to those I say, it is not that I know so much, 
> it is that they know so little. : )
>
>  So today, I "know everything" but can't do much of anything that 
> amounts to anything.
>
>
>
>  ( Note: During much of the scio processing I had, since I got into 
> scio in 1997, I often complained to the auditor (s), that it feels 
> like he was processing someone "other" than me, and I was not making 
> gains. He (they) had no comment, as if it went over their heads )
>
>  In TROM this valence/ postulate thing, becomes particularly 
> interesting and so my hopes are raised.
>
>  One thing that appears evident to me is that I am at the bottom of 
> the downward spiral; "can't do much of anything".
>
>
>
>
>  Over the last month or so, I think I have done most of level two, and 
> I think; level three of TROM, just by being aware of releasing and 
> looking at incidents and if an incident or rather a pattern or 
> condition of anxiety, and related emotional disorders; "charge', would 
> be restimulated, I would become aware of it and consciously release 
> it, and it would release in great measure. This would occur while I 
> was carrying on with my daily activities.
>
>  Primarily while going for walks. I would connect with charge and it 
> would release like volcanoes. This went on daily, for over a week.
>
>  This went on with such intensity that I had no time for so called 
> "time breaking", nor were there always any incidents in view, just a 
> lot of charge.
>
>  I would just be conscious of what was going on and be aware of 
> present time and my environment.
>
>  I was surprised that all this charge was not released by auditing.
>
>  There is still some charge left, but it does not usually come up, 
> except when I am in an restimulative environment.
>
>  I think this charge build up, over the years, is what caused stomach 
> ulcers and an abdominal hernia, around five or six years ago and 
> continue to this day. These are very painful and problematic.
>
>  This was quite beneficial. My ulcers and hernia are now not as 
> reactive, meaning do not flare up as much.
>
>  That part, for now at least, feels better.
>
>
>
>  So do you have any insights or ideas of how I could handle these 
> matters with TROM?
>
>  If anyone has any questions, please ask. You are my assistant TROM 
> auditors.
>
>  I welcome any comments and suggestions from any one.
>
>
>  I gather this TROM is not anywhere as easy as Dennis implies. I 
> gather and get the impression that at least a few very experienced 
> scios, have tried it and gave up.
>
>  I want to give it an honest effort and an honest chance. Because it 
> sounds right and I see no reason why it should not work.
>
>  But maybe in some tough cases, contrary to Dennis' words, a person 
> needs a bit of auditor type help for level 2 and 3.
>
>
>
>  Or is this really just some flow of consciousness, of Dennis'? Which 
> sounds good and has become another bait and trap for us?
>
>  Is there anyone that has successfully completed the process?
>
>  If there are any, your help would sure be appreciated.
>
>
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On 26-Jul-09, at 2:12 PM, Martin Foster wrote:
> *************
>  The following message is relayed to you by trom at lists.newciv.org
>  ************
>  Hi David,
>
>  As they are self determined postulates - you are only looking at one 
> end of the comm line:  On the other end are the pan-determined PD 
> postulates.
>
>          SD                                    PD
>  1. Must be known.          3. Must know
>  2. Must not be known.     4. Must not know.
>  R E V E R S A L
>  1R. Must know.                 3R. Must be known.
>  2R. Must not know.           4R. Must not be known
>
>  In above the SD-and the opposite or "In line" PD- are complementary 
> and therefore - No game. Which is what you give in 1 - 3 and 2 -4 - No 
> game
>
>  I've placed "reversal" between 2 and 3 above as those are the reverse 
> complementary postulates.
>
>  The conflicting postulates are  1 and 4 ---- and 2 and 3.
>
>  Games are created with conflicting postulates not complementary 
> postulates.
>
>  So if you look at either the SD side or the PD side you can get the 
> idea of  what you intend and originate from the SD view and what you 
> intend to occur on the PD side.
>
>  Example of the postulates - Please note - this isn't an example of 
> the effects occurring in the mind:
>
>  A news-reporter wants to reveal some torture he suspects occurring in 
> the military. (Must know -3) plus (Must be known -1)
>  A soldier wants him to know about the torture (Must be known 1) and 
> informs him. - No game between soldier and reporter
>  BUT
>  Someone in the military does not want this known and forbids 
> publication and threatens him (Must not be known -2) 
>  He now wants to find out who this person is (Must know -3) 
>  The military forbids all soldiers from speaking to the press (Must 
> not know -4 and Must not be known -2)
>
>  If the reporter gets all revealed - he achieves his goal - but if 
> overwhelmed by an intimidating, pro military Editor then he may become 
> the (2 -Mustn't be known) in the excerpt below.
>
>  I'm certain you get the drift now?
>
>  Further in TROM - you will find the following - It helps to read 
> TROM  a few times through:  I have added emphasis & numbering:
>
>  ((((((People do tend - repeat tend - to become more or less fixed in 
> one or other of the legs of the basic game, and take on the 
> personality characteristics of the postulate they are dramatizing. 
> Viz:
>
> 1. Must be known. Outflowing. Extrovert. Persuasive. Creative. Often 
> prone to jealousy. Overts by infliction, and very upset by rejection. 
> He got into this leg by being overwhelmed by a Must Be Known, whose 
> valence he now occupies.
>
> 2.Mustn’t be known. Restrained outflow. Retiring. Devious. Secretive. 
> Obsessed by ‘privacy’. Tends to collect mass and wealth by the simple 
> expedient of not being able to outflow it. Overts by deprivation, and 
> very worried by the thought of their secret wheeler-dealings being 
> revealed. He got into this leg
>  by being overwhelmed by a Mustn’t know while being in the Must be 
> known leg; he now dramatizes the Mustn’t be known PD postulate of his 
> overwhelmer.
>
> 3. Must know. Inflow. Nosey. Curious. Inclined to he highly sensual. 
> Demands open comm lines. Hates secrets, and loves exposing them. Good 
> solver of puzzles. Overts by revelation, and just hates being deprived 
> of things. He got into this leg by being overwhelmed by a Must know, 
> whose valence he now occupies.
>
> 4. Mustn’t know. Restrained inflow. Rejection. Compulsively makes 
> nothing out of things. Destructive. Overts by rejection, and dreads 
> having anything inflicted upon him. Contrary to popular opinion he did 
> not get this way by having things forced upon him. He got into this 
> leg by being overwhelmed by a Mustn’t be known while being in the Must 
> know leg; he now dramatizes the Mustn’t know PD postulate of his 
> overwhelmer. He’s been overwhelmed by deprivation.
>
>  Most people are a composite of the above types, but you will come 
> across an almost ‘pure’ type occasionally. Generally speaking, the 
> more inflexible the personality, the more it will tend towards a 
> ‘pure’ type. It can also be seen that the class of motivators the 
> being complains of not only tells you the type of overts he 
> compulsively commits, the leg of the basic game he is dramatizing, but 
> also just how he got into that leg. Thus, the data is of inestimable 
> value when dealing with the mind.))))))
>
>  Martin
>
>  David Pelly wrote:*************
> The following message is relayed to you by trom at lists.newciv.org
>  ************
>  Sorry, the first letter was sent by mistake
>
>
>  To anyone who can,
>
>  I copied the following from Dennis' theory transcript page:
>
>  Quote:
>
>  Collecting and numbering our four basic SD postulates we get:
>
>  1. Must be known. 3. Must know.
>  2. Must not be known. 4. Must not know.
>
>  End of quote
>
>
>  Can someone please give me a typical real life example of a game that
>  would consist of:
>
>  1 and 3
>
>  2 and 4
>
>  and so forth,
>
>  and how it progresses down the dwindling spiral"
>
>  Thanks
>
>  David
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Trom mailing list
>  Trom at lists.newciv.org
>  http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
>>
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