[TROM1] Replay B51

Ant Phillips ivy at post8.tele.dk
Fri Jan 25 12:14:21 UTC 2008


--
Previously sent Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:19:21 +0100
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:40:36 +0200
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:56:58 +0100
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:43:21 +0100
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:27:34 +0200

Subject:                TROM Replay B51
         Date:              Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:22:48 +0100
        From:              Antony Phillips <ivy at post8.tele.dk>
Organization:         International Viewpoints
           To:              trom-l at newciv.org


      Subject:              TROM - from the Pilot, April 4th
         Date:              Sun, 05 Apr 1998 19:18:38 +0200
        From:              Antony Phillips <ivy at post8.tele.dk>
Organization:         International Viewpoints
           To:              trom-l at newciv.org


Dear Trommers

To those who follow alt.clearing.technology closely, my apologies for
cluttering your inbox with the following.

All of the Pilots 4th April postings can be found at
http://www.freezoneamerica.org
The interesting ones here are

http://freezoneamerica.org/pilot/posts/1998/post28.txt

http://freezoneamerica.org/pilot/posts/1998/post29.txt
--
FreeZone America
http://freezoneamerica.org
There is LIFE after Scientology, and that life begins in the FreeZone!

[[/freezoneamerica.org addresses ammended 021010]]

I would encourage comments from people who _have_ run TROM - The Pilot has not.

All the best,

Ant - trom-l administrator.

*************************************

jules at dev.null (Jules Trent) asked on subject
"To Pilot re: TROM"

 > First, thanks for a much prior post re, Power Pr realization
 > (with clear cog as side effect) producing a state that is, per
 > Ron, senior to that produced by Clearing Course...Just what I
 > got from  realizing "*I* am Source" on the first command of the
 > first process.....Also explains: later (post-Church) I got hold
 > of R6-EW and ran it....went nowhere....and on listing for the
 > trouble, got huge LF/BD/FN on "was nothing wrong in the first
 > place:.....Thanks again...
 > Shouldn't have invalidated myself--- DUH!

Great!

 > Re TROM:
 >
 > 1) What's your opinion on running it just as given?
 >
 > 2) Up through stage 3, it is ho-hum. Timebreaking seems to be
 > simply, viewing a "past" incident in PT and as-ising it...which
 > I can do with no trouble, even when the incident has a lot of
 > "special effects" and temporary stuff-to-wade-through......
 > Think I am too cocky, or too cautious?
 >
 > 3) Would appreciate your view re TROM and E-meter. What's your
 > opinion as compared to the view given in TROM itself?
 >
 > Will await possible reply on A.C.T.
 >
 > Jules

I've said a bit about Trom before, but it is about time I reviewed it 
in detail.

For starters, here are my quick notes on reading it. These are,
of course, my opinions of what he is having people do.

-----

NOTES ON TROM

In general he has nice descriptions of postulates, games, etc.
and a good discussion of some of the important points involved
in auditing.

Level 1:

Setups, run by another, basically, the CCHs.

RI (Repair of Importances), The Governor

a) Create Something
b) Have another create something

or similar processes (bring something into existance)
(create an importance).

Note, mockup in all directions, & you don't have to percieve
them for them to be real.


RI by perception -
Feeling objects, getting weight and temprature, etc.

Level 2:

Basically then and now alternate spotting with a differentiation
step.

Level 3:

Timebreaking - simultaneously perceiving a past scene and PT until
the past scene dissolves.

Level 4:

Overwhelm - Bascially handling incidents of enforced and
inhibited "know" on both inflow and outflow by means of
the timebreaking process.

Level 5:

Postulates - handled in terms of Games.
It is basically a GPM like pattern of postulates / counter-postulates
(8 pairs of items) on Must / Mustn't Know. There is a GPM crossover
style valence shift in the middle of the scale.

The pattern then repeats on a substitute significance.
One basically holds up the postulates of the items and timebreaks
whatever shows up, and one does lots of RI.

Additional Materials:

These extend the level 5 handling into more goals, which are
seen as deriving from the basic set on Know.

One of the lists of additional goals is: To create, love, admire,
enhance, help, feel, control, own, have, eat, sex.

----

The RI processes are appropriate for use as what I refer to
as a "safety net" in self processing. In other words, something
basic that you can do to cool down restimulation if you get
into trouble.

The creative RI is usable but is a very high gradient for
someone if they get in trouble. In other words, it could be
very workable under normal circumstances but be too steep at
the exact time when the person needs it most.

The RI by perception should work even if the person is heavily
spun in by a bad mistake. But it is not necessarily the easiest
process of its kind.

I put many different processes of this class into the self
clearing book on the basis that some will work better than
others for a given individual and he may need alternatives
if he gets into trouble.

Also, although all processes of this class are theoretically
unlimited, they do sometimes flatten and overrun temporarily,
so you need multiple choices.

I would recommend doing the first few chapters of self clearing
first and having those processes at your fingertips in addition
to the RI in case of trouble.

Also, some of the processes in those first chapters should reach
lower than the RI set and can probably subsitute for doing CCHs
at level 1, at least for anybody who is aware enough to read
the book and try it.

----

He is also using the RI processes as a sort of havingness
step to balance blowing mass in session.

This is not a bad idea, and is very much in keeping with the
late 1950s style of processing.

But it is also to some slight degree a solution to bypassing
too many areas and running with inadequate Itsa.

I don't want to invalidate this, because running havingness
or create or any nice booster action between steps or at
the end of session is a good and helpful thing.

However, it usually only becomes critical (and needs to be
done in vast quantities), when there is too much being
sidestepped. For example, with quickie triple grades in the
late 1960s, you were asking for an instant cave in if you
didn't finish the grade off with a havingness process.

The effect is not simply due to blowing too much mass at once.
That is the mistake. You can blow tons of mass without this
effect if you balance areas of handling. The effect comes
from blowing really deep holes in the bank while ignoring
other areas. The effect has occured often on the Scientology
research line because of the stupid idea of having found
the one and only right why and then pushing it to the hilt
while ignoring all the other things we knew. But it rarely
happens with things like expanded grades that use a broader
base.

So I would say that if you seem to be needing too much RI,
then you should run something other than TROM for awhile.

Trom's biggest liability is simply that it is a very narrow
subset of the tech and the areas that can be handled.

At the same time, he does give me the idea that I should
check over the self clearing book and add some havingness
or creative mockups to the end of the occasional chapter
which doesn't already have them built in. These things
are always useful as an enhancement.

What I'm really trying to say here about Trom is that his
RI actions are good but also that they are good enough to
cover weaknesses in his levels.

----

Unfortunately, he completely misses the areas of the grades.
That was also true of 1950s Scientology. That will give
trouble eventually, and that is why we ended up with modern
Scientology even though the 1950s stuff is ten times more
powerful. The really smart thing is to use both instead
of one or the other.

----

His level 2 is a very "standard" application of late 1950s
Scientology. There are dozens of varitions of these kinds
of processes and all work very well. Some are in the self
clearing book.

----

His Timebreaking is a bit different from earlier techniques.

I tried it and it seemed like fun to do it with light
incidents, but I prefer to handle light incidents with
simple itsa and blowing by inspection.

But the timebreaking seems to be designed as a heavy
incident handling technique rather than a light one.

For me most incidents are not "heavy" and so I rarely
use heavy incident running, by which I mean any technique
like R3R or other drills that let you push through on
something that is really difficult to confront and can't
be blow by simple itsa.

But I felt that I should try this once just to see how
good the timebreaking was on a rough incident.

Finally I remembered an old picture of some kind of 4 dimensional
spiral which I had clipped while running something else
and never gotten around to examining more deeply. This
was something from before home universe in the area of
track that I still have trouble understanding and Itsaing,
so it seemed appropriate for a real test.

So I got present time and this old 4 dimensional thing
around me simultaneously.

Present time started distorting. Lots of shifts back and
forth in depth perception and intensity of colors and some
sporatic double images of room objects. Really wierd.

That cooled down a bit (but didn't entirely stop) and that
damn spiral just sat there solid as a rock.

Finally I got impatient and, while continuing to hold both
the spiral and present time in my attention, I started spotting
points on the spiral (simple objective spotting). That
got things moving, and suddenly I started being able to
itsa the thing, and I realized that it was curving through
a 4th dimension as a means of transportation between two
different 3 dimensional frames.

With that the whole thing dissolved and the distortions
stopped and I felt really good.

My conclusion was that I had to beef up the Itsa line
to get this to work well on a heavy picture. So that
makes it a marginal process unless you enhance it a bit
or instinctively tend to spot and itsa things in the
thing that you are handling.

But it is still a nice trick.

----

For level 4 I would say that you would be better off with
recalls and intensive Itsa on the buttons being handled.

But this is not to say that the timebreaking wouldn't
work but just to say that it might be slower and might
not run as deep.

Pushing at things in a way that maximizes Itsa is better
because it gives you much more orientation and understanding
of what you are taking apart.

----

Level 5 has the inherent assumption that the basic goal
is To Know. This may act as a wrong item for some
people.

It is possible that there is a very early track actual
GPM series that begins with this goal and runs well
on his short item pattern.

It is also possible that there is an implant series
that this is approximating.

It is also possible that this might actually be pieces
of something larger and that it works sometimes to
relieve charge.

If it is only an implant, I would think that the
timebreaking actually works better than repetative item
spotting. It might even be strong enough to blow charge
on a platen that is only half right. And that might
be a good use for the timebreaking technique in
general. I'm only guessing now, but I think that it
could drain charge off of an out of sequence or wrongly
worded implant item that wouldn't blow on simple spotting.

If, however, this stuff is some kind of actual GPM,
the timebreaking technique would probably not give enough
Itsa to really handle it fully. That was always the
bane of the GPM research, namely that there was too
much running of items and too little Itsa of how the
items were lived.

It does feel like he is very close on some early actual
GPM series, but I don't have my hands on it right now and
I wouldn't venture to say how accurate his pattern is or
how many people would be able to run this series successfully.

I would suggest that people who try to run this should
try to add in some technique to get more itsa. Perhaps
simply to describe what somebody might do to make such
and such a postulate stick or what overts they might
commit while doing it. Or to try and date/locate when
they were living the item.

If somebody is making gains with this, I would say go
for it, and please write up what you find. But if
it wouldn't run and doesn't indicate, I would say
that you shouldn't push it or try to force it to run
because it may be way off from where you are sitting
right now.

Right now I think that we set up an actual GPM series
for each universe and that we leave it running and don't
abandon it when we move down to a lower universe and
start a new series, so that many sets are running
concurrently. And each could be traced sequentially.
That would be the way to distinguish an actual series
from an implanted one (you don't live implants
sequentially, you dramatize different parts as they
go into restim). But one series of actuals might
explain your choice of professions and a different
one might explain your love life and yet another one
might explain your taste in movies.

If he is right in the simplicity of his item pattern,
then the series is a holdover from an very early universe
because we have gotten more complex as we went along.

It feels like he has pieces of a larger goals series.
Since the technique allows for finding more goals,
one would have to see what one came up with. His goals
series does approximate the Know to Mystery scale and
he mentions substitute as the action which one does
as one cycles downward, which fits in with the general
theory of K to M.

It is quite possible that the K to M scale is rooted
in an actual GPM sequence and originates from there.

I will be quite interested to hear what people find
out while working with this level. I can not
guarantee that it is either safe or accurate, but I
don't want to invalidate it because it could well be
a significant piece of the puzzle.

----

In summary, I would say that there is some good stuff
in Trom, and that he has done some good writeups
about basic things that will be useful in studying
other techniques as well, but that it is far from a
complete case handling and should be used in conjunction
with other things.

He is also to be commended for having made it primarily
a solo effort.


Best,

The Pilot


==========================================
--
       Ant                               Antony A Phillips
       ivy at post8.tele.dk
                                         tlf: (+45) 45 88 88 69
                                          Box 78
                                          DK - 2800 Lyngby
Editor, International Viewpoints (= IVy). See Home Page:





Subject:         basic package and the grades
   Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:32:27 -0700
   From:         "MICHAEL W. BONNYCASTLE" <bcastle at SoCA.com>
     To:         trom-l at newciv.org


Hello fellow Tromsters,
How are things going with everyone? Things are going great on
Trom with me. The basic package on level 5 has finally started to
erase though not completely yet(it is, as one might expect, quit stubborn)

              But Dennis is definitely correct when he said you 'know 
it' as one does
              and it's terrific. I am probably going to run through 
the Pilot's Self
              Clearing book after Trom because it looks interesting 
and why not? Would
              anyone else share their views on this book, the grades, 
Trom and their
              relation to the erasure of the basic package?

               Best regards,

                  Michael Bonnycastle


Subject:
         Re: basic package and the grades
   Date:
         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:57:27 -0500
   From:
         "Dustin W. Carr" <dwc5 at cornell.edu>
     To:
         trom-l at newciv.org


Michael,

Nice to hear that things are going well.

I don't think I ever erased the basic package with TROM, but I did get a
little bored with TROM (after 3 years of level 5). I never stopped making
gains, but nothing dramatic for the last few months. I made up some other
exercises based on TROM that had amazing effects the first few times I did
them.

I have started going through the Pilot's book, just to be doing something
new. I appreciate the Pilot's viewpoint. I think the varied objective
processes are very nice to have, and I have used them. Some of the
subjective processes conflict with how I have organized my reality. They
are still based on a linear time track that has long since lost meaning for
me. I am still doing them, but with gains that are quite minor. Some of
the later process look like a lot of fun, but I am being dilligent about
going through the book in order.

Dustin

 >Hello fellow Tromsters,
 >
 >                 How are things going with everyone?  Things are going
 >great on
 >              Trom with me.  The basic package on level 5 has finally
 >started to
 >              erase though not completely yet(it is, as one might 
expect, quit stubborn)
 >              But Dennis is definitely correct when he said you 
'know it' as one does
 >              and it's terrific.  I am probably going to run 
through the Pilot's Self
 >              Clearing book after Trom because it looks interesting 
and why not?  Would
 >              anyone else share their views on this book, the 
grades, Trom and their
 >              relation to the erasure of the basic package?
 >
 >               Best regards,
 >
 >                  Michael Bonnycastle


Dustin W. Carr                   work phone: 607-255-2329 ext. 117
Electron Beam Lithography        home phone: 607-272-1831
Cornell Nanofabrication Facility email: dwc5 at cornell.edu
Knight Laboratory
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY 14853




    Subject:            TIME
      Date:            Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:15:29 -0700
      From:            Randy Nicholson <bnb at best.com>
        To:            trom-l at newciv.org
References:
            1

Hello All,

Its nice to hear from you Dustin and Michael. And the good results from using
TROM. I have experienced many gains myself so far.

I wanted to point out to anyone that considered running a certain Level should
take a certain amount of time.

Considering it taking an almost eternity of "time" to gather charge on ones
case would "seem" that it might take an almost eternity of "time" to erase. I
don't view time as linear but more as a circular item getting bigger or
smaller
with consideration. Its just another element of our universe. Its easy for me
to see all of time all at once without being in it.

This point of view has taken the " Hurry up " to get through the levels away
for me and is the biggest gain using TROM so far and I look at this
universe in
a different way.

Okay so here is my point. 1 year on a level may be right for one person while
15 years is right for another person.

I see TROM as a set of basic tools for achievement. I wouldn't use TROM
just to
see what is going to happen. I have specific goals and I use any tools that I
think will help me achieve them weather it be TROM or whatever. Dennis had the
goal to resolve the mind and put together a great set of tools for all of us to
use. They are obviously not the only tools but just about. Do some browsing
around, I did. I consider the Pilots book a work of art and full of great
tools although I have not used them as of yet.

Anyway, the following paragraphs came to mind after reading my email this
afternoon in case anyone is interested. It is right from the TROM book.

Good luck to you.

Sincerely
Randy Nicholson




Do the practical exactly as given in the existing Practical Section. Level
One, Two, Three, Four and Five.

Continue on Level Five with the 'To know' package while it continues to produce
change. Never - repeat, never - leave this package for a junior package while
it is still producing change. You may never have to leave it, and it will take
you all the way. It is the only package that can do this.

If running the 'To know' package on Level Five never produces any change, then
one of the following is happening:

1) You aren't running it properly. Check your instructions.

2) Levels 1,2,3 or 4 are not properly run. Go through them all once more from
the beginning and complete. Then return to Level Five.

The basic package, when correctly run as per Level Five by a being who is ready
and properly prepared to run it (i.e. Levels 1,2,3 and 4 run until no 
more change)
will always produce some change. It is usually considerable. There is no
exception to this rule. If the being is in this universe, and is 
ready for Level Five, then Level
Five run on the 'To know' package will always produce change when first
addressed. The reason for this is because no matter what goals the 
person is functioning
on in life these goals must contain some conviction component associated with
them. Conviction is enforced knowingness, and so the 'To know' package will mop
up this charge.

The primary error on Level Five is to abandon the 'To know' package because it
has never produced any change, and go ransacking amongst junior packages like
a shopper looking for bargains at a sale. None of the junior packages will aid
you in the slightest until you can make the basic package run for you. The
fault is not in
the significance of the basic package, it lies in the fact that either you are
not yet up to doing Level Five, or you are not running it properly. Get the
basic package
running. Stay with it as long as it continues to produce change. Only when the
basic package is running are junior packages runnable. To do Level Five any
other
way is the royal road to making a cot case out of yourself. You are already
playing with dynamite, so don't push your luck too far.

If the 'To know' package ceases to produce change after having produced change,
then select another life goal that interests you. Interest is always 
the keynote that
determines the selection of a junior package. It takes precedence over all
other types of assessment. If a goal is of no interest to you then 
don't waste time
addressing it, for it will not help you. Later you may become intensely
interested in this goal. Then is the time to address it.


Dustin W. Carr wrote:

 > Michael,
 >
 > Nice to hear that things are going well.
 >
 > I don't think I ever erased the basic package with TROM, but I did get a
 > little bored with TROM (after 3 years of level 5).  I never stopped making
 > gains, but nothing dramatic for the last few months.  I made up some other
 > exercises based on TROM that had amazing effects the first few times I did
 > them.
 >
 > I have started going through the Pilot's book, just to be doing something
 > new.  I appreciate the Pilot's viewpoint.  I think the varied objective
 > processes are very nice to have, and I have used them.  Some of the
 > subjective processes conflict with how I have organized my reality.  They
 > are still based on a linear time track that has long since lost meaning for
 > me.  I am still doing them, but with gains that are quite minor.  Some of
 > the later process look like a lot of fun, but I am being dilligent about
 > going through the book in order.
 >
 > Dustin
 >
 > >Hello fellow Tromsters,
 > >
 > >                 How are things going with everyone?  Things are going
 > >great on
 > >              Trom with me.  The basic package on level 5 has finally
 > >started to
 > >              erase though not completely yet(it is, as one might expect,
 > >quit stubborn)
 > >              But Dennis is definitely correct when he said you 'know it'
 > >as one does
 > >              and it's terrific.  I am probably going to run through the
 > >Pilot's Self
 > >              Clearing book after Trom because it looks interesting and
 > >why not?  Would
 > >              anyone else share their views on this book, the grades, Trom
 > >and their
 > >              relation to the erasure of the basic package?
 > >
 > >               Best regards,
 > >
 > >                  Michael Bonnycastle
 >
 > Dustin W. Carr                    work phone:  607-255-2329 ext. 117
 > Electron Beam Lithography         home phone:  607-272-1831
 > Cornell Nanofabrication Facility  email:  dwc5 at cornell.edu
 > Knight Laboratory
 > Cornell University
 > Ithaca, NY 14853





Subject:         Comment on comment
   Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:38:52 +0100
   From:         Jude <jude at meth.demon.co.uk>
     To:         trom-l at newciv.org


To All

I was interested to read the comments made by Michael and Dustin.

I found that Trom was marvellous, and I still use many of the techniques
I learned there I regularly.

However, I found that I needed to move on and look at other things in
other ways. It was not the be all and end all for me.

Its interesting to understand that life is an infinite game. To
discover one's abilities and power is a wonderful thing. As we go
through barriers, new horizons appear and there are knew things to
learn. Indeed, its wonderful that there are always new things to
discover and learn about.

I had a look at the pilot a while ago and found some interesting and
valid things in there too.

The trick is to keep a balance between the unknown and known - its quite
a demanding feat - makes for good games.

As one's understanding of responsibility increases, so does our
understand of what will be the outcome of our choices, and thus we
become free. Great game!

Judith

--
Judith Methven


Subject:         Re: Comment on comment
   Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:15:28 +1000
   From:         "RVH" <rvh at ozemail.com.au>
     To:         "TROM-L" <trom-l at newciv.org>, "Jude" <jude at meth.demon.co.uk>



 >To All
 >
 >I was interested to read the comments made by Michael and Dustin.
 >
 >I found that Trom was marvellous, and I still use many of the techniques
 >I learned there I regularly.
 >
 >However, I found that I needed to move on and look at other things in
 >other ways.  It was not the be all and end all for me.
 >
 >Its interesting to understand that life is an infinite game.  To
 >discover one's abilities and power is a wonderful thing. As we go
 >through barriers, new horizons appear and there are knew things to
 >learn.  Indeed, its wonderful that there are always new things to
 >discover and learn about.
 >
 >I had a look at the pilot a while ago and found some interesting and
 >valid things in there too.
 >
 >The trick is to keep a balance between the unknown and known - its quite
 >a demanding feat - makes for good games.
 >
 >As one's understanding of responsibility increases, so does our
 >understand of what will be the outcome of our choices, and thus we
 >become free.  Great game!
 >
 >Judith
 >
 >--
 >Judith Methven


Dear Judith,

I take it you mean you have finished TROM and are now making these comments.
This means you have erased the basic package, and, also finished and obtained
the EP's of all levels.

This is a disappointment to me, because I believed Dennis when he said that he
had found the tech, after many lifetimes of seeking, that would result in
"nirvana". Now you are saying you have completed all Dennis had to offer, and
that it does not result in the ultimate - "Nirvana". IE: nothing more to do,
ever.

Could I ask you if you are SURE that you completed all levels to EP, and that
you successfully erased the basic package? And that it remains erased?

I am just starting back on TROM having reread the manual again, and was all
keen
and everything that it would result in erasing the "mind", as Dennis claimed.
Now it seems from what you have said that this is not the case. 
Dennis must have
been mistaken, which is understandable considering he had not actually finished
erasing the basic package himself. Last I heard, he was still on 
level 5, before
he dropped the body.

A question I would have for you is:

Having finished TROM, how do you feel about "dropping the body. It seems to me
to be one thing to understand games and be able to play without risk of the
"downward spiral" having done TROM while "in a Body", but how do you think you
will handle games 1. without a body, 2. in the between lives area, and 3.
while in subsequent bodies?

I am running level 2 and 3 at this stage. I don't seem to need RI's very much,
and all is going well.

ML

Ron




Subject:         Re: Comment on comment
   Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:23:29 +0100
   From:         Jude <jude at meth.demon.co.uk>
     To:         RVH <rvh at ozemail.com.au>
    CC:         TROM-L <trom-l at newciv.org>


 >I take it you mean you have finished TROM and are now making these comments.
 >This means you have erased the basic package, and, also finished and obtained
 >the EP's of all levels.
 >

I ran Trom through level 5 and after a while I had had enough of running
it - so not wanting to get into an overrun, I stopped. In my opinion,
EPs are always personal things, and it may not be wise to say that the
same thing is achieved by everyone from doing a certain specific action.

 >This is a disappointment to me, because I believed Dennis when he 
said that he
 >had found the tech, after many lifetimes of seeking, that would 
result in >"nirvana".

Who can correctly define nirvana in a truly spiritual way that is the
same for everyone. Doing auditing for others, I have been surprised at
the diversity of goals, and how they can be changed, and how people do
this changing. Taking out what you do not want and putting in
postulates you do want seems to be a very, very individual thing. It
would appear to me that in the end, most people seem to want harmony in
their life.

One thing is for sure, I have gained a great deal from doing TROM and
wouldn't have missed out on it for anything.

You can't really say what nirvana is until you have it, and even then it
might not be the same for everyone. It might be something that continues
expanding, so that you do not know its parameters. (Seems a good way of
playing the game to me, anyway.)

 >Now you are saying you have completed all Dennis had to offer, and
 >that it does not result in the ultimate - "Nirvana". IE: nothing more to do,
 >ever.

In my opinion, it would be very boring if there were no more games to
play. I personally would not like to have nothing new to explore - it
would not be my nirvana. I have been looking more for a way of making
my life run well, rather than having nothing more to do. I personally
like to learn new things that are interesting and fun - which can't be
done if you know everything and there is nothing left to do.
 >
 >Could I ask you if you are SURE that you completed all levels to EP, and that
 >you successfully erased the basic package? And that it remains erased?
 >

No, I am never sure of things like that. I just go on exploring and
learning. I find that life has improved beyond my wildest imaginings,
as my postulates have changed - I wish that life continues to be
interesting and fun, that I find and improve ways to handle anything
that comes in front of me - that is what I hold to be most valuable.
Personally, I like to improve my abilities to run my life well, and also
to be able to look at things that I do not like and find their cause.

 >I am just starting back on TROM having reread the manual again, and was
all keen
 >and everything that it would result in erasing the "mind", as Dennis claimed.
 >Now it seems from what you have said that this is not the case. Dennis
must have
 >been mistaken, which is understandable considering he had not actually
finished
 >erasing the basic package himself. Last I heard, he was still on level 5,
before
 >he dropped the body.

I expect you'll gain much by going through TROM again.
 >
 >A question I would have for you is:
 >
 >Having finished TROM, how do you feel about "dropping the body. It seems
to me
 >to be one thing to understand games and be able to play without risk of the
 >"downward spiral" having done TROM while "in a Body", but how do 
you think you
 >will handle games 1. without a body, 2. in the between lives area, 
and 3. while
 >in subsequent bodies?
 >

I am confident that I have made great progress so far this life, and my
postulate is that this continues what ever happens. If I may be so bold
as to say, thoughts about having bodies, not having bodies, games that
can be played this way or that - implanting and the like are things that
run out as one's understandings of responsibility and the Rules of the
Game of Life improve, or at any rate, this is what has happened to me.
These things once had much importance to me (actually, come to think
back, about the time I started TROM), but at this moment have much less
importance. I have to be honest and say I've done lots of other work
after doing Trom.

 >I am running level 2 and 3 at this stage. I don't seem to need RI's very
much,
 >and all is going well.

I am very pleased. Do what feels right - even if at times it feels a
little odd.

If I may be so bold as to say, it is worth remembering there is never
'only one way' of doing things - even if people would like to tell you
so. If something is helping one to live a better life, as one wants,
then its value is immediately apparent. If not, then maybe its time to
change something somewhere. Trom has helped me much in living my life
in a more satisfactory way.

Best wishes

Judith


--
Judith Methven


Subject:         Re:Re: Comment on comment
   Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:43:14 +0200
   From:         Rowland Barkley <waterdragon at csi.com>
     To:         "TROM-L" <trom-l at newciv.org>


At 12:16 28-04-98 -0400, you wrote:
 >From: "RVH" <rvh at ozemail.com.au>
 >To: "TROM-L" <trom-l at newciv.org>, "Jude" <jude at meth.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Comment on comment
 >
 >The EP of level 3 is:
 >
 >"..........the endless chatter of the mind will at last be still, and you
will
 >be able to experience the tranquillity of utterly still
 >beingness...............will show the instrument now sitting quite 
motionless at
 >12,500 ohms for a male, and at 5,000 ohms for a female. The needle 
is quite calm
 >and lifeless.  Indeed, from this point onwards the (meter) will 
never move much
 >again."
 >
 >Personally, I think that this EP is required before moving on to 
level 4, and I
 >will not be moving on until I get it.
 >

Ohms resistance has no meaning without specifying Ohms per square
centimetre of skin contact. Specifically Dennis is referring to one
particular brand of instrument that uses large electrodes, namely soup cans
or hair spray cans.

I have only personally ever seen a calm and lifeless needle in cases of
dangerously acute emotional tension.

Unless the GSR resistance is VERY many times the above, some functions such
as meditation, or even going to sleep at night are perfectly impossible.

The Range Arm (showing mean resistance as above) is related to
sympathetic/parasympathetic activation of the autonomic nervous system, and
in a healthy body, this changes markedly throughout the day.

Going to sleep at night, the resistance on large electrodes is more like
50,000 Ohms, and in Buddhist meditation, related to the word Nirvana, more
typically 500,000 Ohms.

Rowland Barkley
* * * Rowland Anton Barkley the Deep TranceForming Shaman * * *
   * * * Email: waterdragon at cis.com rowland at tranceform.org * * *
       * * * Fax: +61-2-9475-0374 http://www.tranceform.org * * *




Subject:         Re: Comment on comment
   Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:51:28 +1000
   From:         "RVH" <rvh at ozemail.com.au>
     To:         "TROM-L" <trom-l at newciv.org>, "Jude" <jude at meth.demon.co.uk>


 >>I take it you mean you have finished TROM and are now making these comments.
 >>This means you have erased the basic package, and, also finished and
obtained
 >>the EP's of all levels.
 >>
 >
 >I ran Trom through level 5 and after a while I had had enough of running
 >it - so not wanting to get into an overrun, I stopped.  In my opinion,
 >EPs are always personal things, and it may not be wise to say that the
 >same thing is achieved by everyone from doing a certain specific action.


This explains your comments. It does concern me that level 5 has the potential
to "grind" on forever, and it may well be that it is not the "ultimate" way to
case completion. However, it seems to me that the other levels, in particular
levels 2 & 3, are revolutionary if they do, as a few have reported on this
list,
result in the "breaking of time". That is, where the illusion of time is "seen
through".

The EP of level 3 is:

"..........the endless chatter of the mind will at last be still, and you will
be able to experience the tranquillity of utterly still
beingness...............will show the instrument now sitting quite 
motionless at
12,500 ohms for a male, and at 5,000 ohms for a female. The needle is 
quite calm
and lifeless. Indeed, from this point onwards the (meter) will never 
move again."

Personally, I think that this EP is required before moving on to level 4,
and I will not be moving on until I get it.

 >
 >>This is a disappointment to me, because I believed Dennis when he said
that he
 >>had found the tech, after many lifetimes of seeking, that would result in
 >>"nirvana".
 >
 >Who can correctly define nirvana in a truly spiritual way that is the
 >same for everyone.  Doing auditing for others, I have been surprised at
 >the diversity of goals, and how they can be changed, and how people do
 >this changing.  Taking out what you do not want and putting in
 >postulates you do want seems to be a very, very individual thing.  It
 >would appear to me that in the end, most people seem to want harmony in
 >their life.

I think a good definition of Nirvana/Enlightenment/Case completion, or
whatever
anyone wants to call the "ultimate state", would be the end of a need for any
further tech. Notice I said "end of a need", NOT "end of desire", because
there
are many who have no desire for tech, but who clearly, or not so clearly,
would
benefit from further tech. I think that anything less than this is not the
ultimate state, and therefore not entitled to be called any of these names.

 >
 >One thing is for sure, I have gained a great deal from doing TROM and
 >wouldn't have missed out on it for anything.
 >
 >You can't really say what nirvana is until you have it

Couldn't agree more.

 >, and even then it
 >might not be the same for everyone.

Afraid I disagree here, but it's not important. It's just my _opinion_.

 >It might be something that continues
 >expanding, so that you do not know its parameters.  (Seems a good way of
 >playing the game to me, anyway.)

I wonder if a being in that state would be interested in playing games?

 >
 >>Now you are saying you have completed all Dennis had to offer, and
 >>that it does not result in the ultimate - "Nirvana". IE: nothing more to do,
 >>ever.
 >
 >In my opinion, it would be very boring if there were no more games to
 >play.  I personally would not like to have nothing new to explore - it
 >would not be my nirvana.  I have been looking more for a way of making
 >my life run well, rather than having nothing more to do.  I personally
 >like to learn new things that are interesting and fun - which can't be
 >done if you know everything and there is nothing left to do.

 >From my perspective, Nirvana is beyond the realm of what you are saying here.
There are plenty of beings that stopped short of Nirvana because they were
happy
to play games at the level they reached running whatever tech or Meditation
they
were running. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, and I will
probably do the same when I can play games at a level I am happy with, but
I am
saying that that is not Nirvana.

 >>
 >>Could I ask you if you are SURE that you completed all levels to EP, and
that
 >>you successfully erased the basic package? And that it remains erased?
 >>
 >
 >No, I am never sure of things like that.  I just go on exploring and
 >learning.  I find that life has improved beyond my wildest imaginings,
 >as my postulates have changed - I wish that life continues to be
 >interesting and fun, that I find and improve ways to handle anything
 >that comes in front of me - that is what I hold to be most valuable.
 >Personally, I like to improve my abilities to run my life well, and also
 >to be able to look at things that I do not like and find their cause.

Thank you for your honest and extremely interesting answers, and I am happy to
hear you are having such a good time after having run TROM.

 >
 >>I am just starting back on TROM having reread the manual again, and was all
keen
 >>and everything that it would result in erasing the "mind", as Dennis
claimed.
 >>Now it seems from what you have said that this is not the case. Dennis must
have
 >>been mistaken, which is understandable considering he had not actually
finished
 >>erasing the basic package himself. Last I heard, he was still on level 5,
before
 >>he dropped the body.
 >
 >I expect you'll gain much by going through TROM again.

I have read it twice, and it was even more "enlightening" the second time. I
will definitely read it many more times.

 >>
 >>A question I would have for you is:
 >>
 >>Having finished TROM, how do you feel about "dropping the body. It seems
to me
 >>to be one thing to understand games and be able to play without risk of the
 >>"downward spiral" having done TROM while "in a Body", but how do you
think you
 >>will handle games 1. without a body, 2. in the between lives area, and 3.
while
 >>in subsequent bodies?
 >>
 >
 >I am confident that I have made great progress so far this life, and my
 >postulate is that this continues what ever happens.  If I may be so bold
 >as to say, thoughts about having bodies, not having bodies, games that
 >can be played this way or that - implanting and the like are things that
 >run out as one's understandings of responsibility and the Rules of the
 >Game of Life improve, or at any rate, this is what has happened to me.
 >These things once had much importance to me (actually, come to think
 >back, about the time I started TROM), but at this moment have much less
 >importance.

What you have said here confirms my high opinion of this tech. It would be
worth running for this EP alone.

 > I have to be honest and say I've done lots of other work
 >after doing Trom.

Great! The great thing about the internet is that info about tech can be spread
very rapidly. I'd look forward to hearing about your experiences sometime. You
know, this was good, this was not so good etc, on maybe IVY-L or whatever.

 >
 >>I am running level 2 and 3 at this stage. I don't seem to need 
RI's very much,
 >>and all is going well.
 >
 >I am very pleased.  Do what feels right - even if at times it feels a
 >little odd.
 >
 >If I may be so bold as to say, it is worth remembering there is never
 >'only one way' of doing things - even if people would like to tell you
 >so.  If something is helping one to live a better life, as one wants,
 >then its value is immediately apparent. If not, then maybe its time to
 >change something somewhere.  Trom has helped me much in living my life
 >in a more satisfactory way.


Thank you once again for your honest and extremely interesting comments.

Ron Van Haarlem

 >
 >Best wishes
 >
 >Judith
 >
 >
 >--
 >Judith Methven
 >



Subject:         Re: Re:Re: Comment on comment
   Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:54:20 +1000
   From:         "RVH" <rvh at ozemail.com.au>
     To:         "TROM-L" <trom-l at newciv.org>, "Rowland Barkley"
<waterdragon at csi.com>


 >>The EP of level 3 is:
 >>
 >>"..........the endless chatter of the mind will at last be still, and you
 >will
 >>be able to experience the tranquillity of utterly still
 >>beingness...............will show the instrument now sitting quite
 >motionless at
 >>12,500 ohms for a male, and at 5,000 ohms for a female. The needle is
 >quite calm
 >>and lifeless.  Indeed, from this point onwards the (meter) will never move
 >much
 >>again."
 >>
 >>Personally, I think that this EP is required before moving on to level 4,
 >and I
 >>will not be moving on until I get it.
 >>
 >
 >Ohms resistance has no meaning without specifying Ohms per square
 >centimetre of skin contact. Specifically Dennis is referring to one
 >particular brand of instrument that uses large electrodes, namely soup cans
 >or hair spray cans.


This is logical.

 >
 >I have only personally ever seen a calm and lifeless needle in cases of
 >dangerously acute emotional tension.

This does not mean it is not possible. Dennis said that is what happened to
him at the completion of level 3, and he also insinuates that this was the case
for other/s that had completed levels 2 & 3.

 >
 >Unless the GSR resistance is VERY many times the above, some functions such
 >as meditation, or even going to sleep at night are perfectly impossible.
 >
 >The Range Arm (showing mean resistance as above) is related to
 >sympathetic/parasympathetic activation of the autonomic nervous system, and
 >in a healthy body, this changes markedly throughout the day.
 >
 >Going to sleep at night, the resistance on large electrodes is more like
 >50,000 Ohms, and in Buddhist meditation, related to the word Nirvana, more
 >typically 500,000 Ohms.

This also makes sense, but I think Dennis is refering to normal waking
state for the quoted resistance. I agree it IS an ambiguous statement.
Shame he is not
alive to clarify this, however, I am happy that he meant normal waking state
rather than sleeping state or that boundless state you refer to in
meditation. I would expect that someone in a permanent state of 
Nirvana would have a
resistance something like you describe ( 500,000 ohms ) permanently, except
for maybe when the body was sweating due to exertion for example.

Interesting points you have brought up here. Actually, I am not using a meter
for TROM. What I am expecting, before I move on to level 4 is the other
part of the quote: "the endless chatter of the mind will at last be 
still, and you
will be able to experience the tranquillity of utterly still beingness". I
experience this state regularly, but not permanently, as a result of
meditation. I am hoping that level 3 can stabilise it as Dennis claims.

Ron Van Haarlem

 >
 >Rowland Barkley
 >* * * Rowland Anton Barkley the Deep TranceForming Shaman * * *
 >  * * * Email: waterdragon at cis.com  rowland at tranceform.org * * *
 >       * * * Fax: +61-2-9475-0374  http://www.tranceform.org * * *

--

-- 
       Ant                               Antony A Phillips
       ivy at post8.tele.dk
                                         tlf: (+45) 45 88 88 69
                                         Jernbanevej 3 F, 4th
                                         DK - 2800 Lyngby
Editor, International Viewpoints (= IVy). See Home Page:
http://www.ivymag.org
Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l,
previous-life-scio and IVy lists
--



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