[TROM1] Replay B63

Ant Phillips ivy at post8.tele.dk
Sat Apr 19 20:06:46 UTC 2008


--
(2008) list Home page with access to Archives: 
http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
--
Previously sent:
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:20:09 +0100
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:43:55 +0200
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 23:10:00 +0100
Sat, 10 Apr 2004 05:00:00 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:49:34 +0100
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 21:16:58 +0100
***************************

From: Ray Harman <rayman at adelaide.dialix.com.au>
Message-Id: <199810251147.WAA10151 at adelaide.dialix.com.au>
Subject: workability
To: trom-l at newciv.org
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 22:17:20 +1030 (CST)


Hi,
I have just read Honzo's post.

Although I could not very far into TROM, the idea in the manual that
there is only present time, I cognited on this for myself while on level
two. It forever changed the way I think: it does make it possible to
sneer at the bank!

Regards,

Ray.
**************************************

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:58:19 -0800
To: trom-l at newciv.org
From: Allen <speaker at asc.org>
Subject: Re: workability
Cc: tech at asc.org

At 03:51 PM 10/25/98 -0500, Robert Ducharme wrote:
 >At 22:17 25/10/98 +1030, Ray Harman wrote:
 >>Hi,
 >>I have just read Honzo's post.
 >>
 >>Although I could not very far into TROM, the idea in the manual that
 >>there is only present time, I cognited on this for myself while on level
 >>two. It forever changed the way I think: it does make it possible to
 >>sneer at the bank!
...
 >
 >      Wouldn't the decision that there is only "present time"
 >only hold true within that paradigm?
...
 >      [W]ould the
 >"present time" of Wonderland be different from the "present time" of other
 >realms [?]

Hi,

My two cents, not from a session realization but from a stable ascension
experience of some 12 years ago, still "with me".

When I hear, There is only present time, I expect that the person is
saying, There is only Now. Implicit in that, for me, is that Everything is
Here and Now.

The difference between my viewpoint and that of others, perhaps that as
Robert expressed above, is that I don't see there being more than one
"universe". I see an infinite being, pretending to an infinite number of
aspectal selves, each one believing in its own separateness and identity,
and taking its local focus as a complete reality. I see no universe at all
beyond that Being's imagination, yet within it is the illusion of a
separate world for each aspectal self. Some overlapping and others not, so
that some experience their existence in common with certain others, while
yet others never seem to interact due to the differentiation in their local
assignments of space and time.

But space and time are just labels: the same essential experience might be
had anyWhere, anyTime, as in being jilted by a lover, or hit and killed by
a conveyance, or getting laid for the first time. The experience is the
same at essence, whether it is playing out in caveman times, 1944, or Space
Opera on another planet in another galaxy.

In fact, that same experience might be being had in all of its forms, all
at the same time, by the same individuation further individualized into
each. The dreamer dreaming multiple dreams at once, each of the same event
yet each with its own flavor.

Similarly, the individuation could be individualized into multiple selves
each in totally different styles of experience as well. And then
multiperspectively into a set of variations on each of those.

If you wanted to "chart" reality this way, you could draw a line from
ancient "past" to distant "future", and say, Each point on this line
represents a transitional experience between each adjacent point, all
points being occupied by the same individual believing at each point that
it is only at that point, believing all others to be either past or future
selves in the past or future.

Then you could take any one of those points and draw through it a
perpendicular line off to each side, and call each point on that line a
variation on the event at the starting point on the original line, and
again all points on that line being occupied by the same individual
believing at each point that it is only at that point, believing all others
to be alternate selves in alternate realities.

Is this just a lot of fancy speculation? Or drivel? Is any of it
important? I believe it is, from a clearing perspective.

If you address each point of experience as disconnected from all others,
then when you run an event, you are addressing only one incidence of it.
But if you run it as an aspectal reality, you can use it as a port of
access to the entire content-package of the whole set of that experience in
its infinite variations. Thus you can get more data, more comprehension,
more cognitions, and a much broader impact of improvement ("reorientation"
in my way of viewing case gain, per my Lucidity article on the ASC web page).

It even makes a difference if you try to keep the "chart" I described above
in the same form as I described it. That will limit you as well, for there
is not just one line back to forward representing time past and future, nor
just one line to the sides representing alternative realities. Each point
on each line serves as the center point for an infinite number of lines
that could be charted as spokes about it, as with the hub of a wheel, ad
infinitum. So for the Past-Future line through the immediate present
moment, there is a virtual intersecting plane of alternate-reality lines
rather than a single line intersecting; and for each point on any of those
infinite variation lines, a virtual plane of pasts and futures.

It's not easy to keep a discrete image of this kind of chart unless you
transform it from flat to 3-dimensional to multidimensional, from linear to
complex to chaotic (in the mathematical sense). To do that you mock up an
edgeless holographic image extending out forever in all directions, each
point within which represents either a past or future version of some
variation on one theme or another. And then you mock up another such
holographic image, and another, and another..., putting them all into the
same "space", until you have an infinite number of holographic images for
each of an infinite number of points within each infinite holographic image.

Basically, mathematically, we are referencing Infinity cubed (IxIxI) or
(I*I*I).

Then comes the aescensional aspect of the realization that everything is
Now. And Here. And MeUsYou (another way of looking I-I-I). This is the
realization during which you can conceive that since all these infinite
points are infinitely cross-connected, they all exist, implicitly, in any
single point. Thus there is only one point for Here, one point for Now,
and they are the same point. And because all aspectal selves are really
just a pretense of individuation on the part of Consciousness playing at
being all butterflies at once, there is only one Being.

One consciousness in the Here and Now, imagine-eering all things and
activities at once.

It might occur to some practitioners at this point that it therefore does
not matter if you process a client (or yourself) as though it is the Only
one, either in the sense of that meaning there really is only one, or in
the sense that each individual is the god of its own universe. It may seem
that the god-of-own-universe approach to the individual would get the same
result since it is ultimately true even in the other sense. But it does
matter, for the difference is that there is an arbitrary (conceptual
barrier) hidden in the idea that each of us is a separate god over its own
universe. The barrier is the implied stop from running across identities
and events we don't realize that we do in fact "own".

It also matters again whether you approach each event in isolation or as an
enfolded infinity of events. For it takes infinite time to experience
infinite events. But it takes only a moment to experience AllThatIs.

The difference is between clearing one individual at once, and another and
another, into that same enfolded infinity I described above. Such an
activity would never complete. Or, in the alternative, you completely
clear a single individual in its true identity as the One, and in the
process you clear all aspects, i.e., everyone, at once.

Conceivably, you could clear everyone over infinite time in infinite
sessions running infinite items. Or you could clear the One in one session
running AllThatIs as a single meta-event.

Cool! Of course, if I (or anyone else) ever figure out how to do THAT,
you'll already know.

But that raises new questions, doesn't it? (WHEN does this discussion
end??!!!)

If all is One, Here and Now, then if anything like the clearing I just
described "will" ever happen, it already has, hasn't it (somewhere/when)?
Thus, we might conclude that it has not and therefore will not, for when we
look around ourselves we see too much insanity for that to have happened.

But wait - maybe not. For what if clearing is not what we before-the-fact
think it is? It makes sense that we would not accurately project sanity
from an insane point of view, doesn't it? So it also makes sense that the
unclear would likely have no idea what clear is or looks like, or even how
it "occurs". And that the limited would be incapable of conceiving the
infinite, the frenetic unable to conceive the static, and so on.

Given all that, it may be that we're only tilting windmills here. Yet it
may also well be that clear, "OT" (whatever that is), Nirvana, and etc.,
are much simpler phenomena than most of us have considered. It may be that
what we seek is already extant, and the only real work to be done is to
discover/notice it. Maybe that's how one Being, one Session, one Item
would resolve Everything. It just might not look like what we expect.

So then we come full circle to an old slogan: Life is in session; are you
present?

-0-



Allen, Speaker         |        speaker at asc.org
ASC Missions Group    -0-    http://www.asc.org
Articulate Management  |  http://www.artman.com

****************************************
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 13:28:51 -0500
From: Scott Miller <scott at lillyhomes.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Allen <speaker at asc.org>, "trom-l at newciv.org" <trom-l at newciv.org>
Subject: Re: workability


Allen wrote:

Given all that, it may be that we're only tilting windmills here. Yet it

 > may also well be that clear, "OT" (whatever that is), Nirvana, and etc.,
 > are much simpler phenomena than most of us have considered.  It may be that
 > what we seek is already extant, and the only real work to be done is to
 > discover/notice it.  Maybe that's how one Being, one Session, one Item
 > would resolve Everything.  It just might not look like what we expect.

My companion was raised by Christian Scientists, and so I have had the
opportunity to witness many amazing events in the lives of her 
parents. Malignant
melanoma (my diagnosis, from the massive open patches on his skin) manifesting
then disappearing from the face, ears, and body of her father. The same man
(several years earlier) walking out of the hospital a few days after 
his pick up
truck was hit head on by an 18 wheel tractor trailer - x-rays showed multiple
broken ribs, internal bleeding, spinal fractures, but when the 
swelling subsided,
and before they could apply casts and braces, he quietly left. Of 
course he never
had any follow up, so maybe he never really healed ;-)

Point to all this is that the main doctrine of Christian Science is that
perfection is the only truth, and that anything "imperfect" is only an illusion
to be transcended. The only "evil" is the belief that matter has any 
persistence,
or life of it's own apart from good/God/truth. By attuning themselves with the
idea of "truth", wholeness, perfection, etc. the adherents weaken the illusion
and manifest "truth". (i.e. the broken bones were illusion, there is only one
body and that body is perfect) Also that there are only one set of "ideas". Our
body is the manifestation and reflection of the one and only body, which is
perfect. With disease and physical suffering rampant in those times, the
writings lean heavily on physical "healings"

I realize that we could get into intense semantic discussion here as 
to defining
perfection, truth, etc. My own discomfort with C/S has to do with it's biblical
roots and it is steeped in the language and customs of when it was 
written (late
1800's), but the founder, Mary Baker Eddy viewed the Bible as a codex 
of a sort,
and reinterpreted it as a sort of clearing tool to experience the 
"truth" as all
that is. She states that we have never been other than clear, but our thoughts
have clouded our perception, and we look to the MEST universe for
"evidence" or proof of our delusions.

Personally, I prefer the more mechanistic tools such as TROM to the intuitive
ones like C/S - but again, once I shed my "religion" buttons, I may 
take a closer
look. But I have seen first hand the workability of the idea that "what we
seek is already extant" as Allen suggests.

Scott Miller
scott at lillyhomes.com
smiler at gate.net

*****************************************
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 15:51:54 -0500
To: trom-l at newciv.org
From: VoltR at ctinet.net (RDucharme)
Subject: Re: workability

At 22:17 25/10/98 +1030, Ray Harman wrote:
 >Hi,
 >I have just read Honzo's post.
 >
 >Although I could not very far into TROM, the idea in the manual that
 >there is only present time, I cognited on this for myself while on level
 >two. It forever changed the way I think: it does make it possible to
 >sneer at the bank!
 >
 >Regards,
 >
 >Ray.
 >

Not to be invalidative of another's cognition, as I see much value in it and
have come to similar realizations myself, but how do you know that "present
time" isn't to life as 1944 is to the 1952 movie Casablanca? Suppose you
were watching that movie and interiorized into it to where you believed that
was true reality. Wouldn't the decision that there is only "present time"
only hold true within that paradigm? When we agree with present time, are
we not agreeing in a present time that presents us with a lot of solid
illusions? And so it may be the same as Alice in Wonderland who was seeking
a linear path home believing that "Wonderland time" and space was valid when
it was only a dream and that linear path would only lead to another part of
that dream.

Furthermore, suppose Alice had cognized that she didn't have to be
intimidated by the queen or the Cheshire cat or anyone else, would she not
have been free only within the bounds of that dream? Suppose she said at
that moment "there is only present time", would she be out of the dream
state and free to roam other realities with equal certainty? Or would the
"present time" of Wonderland be different from the "present time" of other
realms and so leave her only a notch freer than before?

Robert

***********************************
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:02:23 -0800
From: Randy Nicholson <bnb at best.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: RDucharme <VoltR at ctinet.net>
CC: trom-l at newciv.org
Subject: Re: workability


I like Judith's point of view about time and now. Weather you are viewing
something today or 1912 or 200,000,000 AD you are still viewing it now.

I could be in the year 3000 AD looking back in time and this keyboard that I
am using to type this letter you are reading would still be something I am
looking at now.

If I consider that I am only in today and not just viewing and perceiving today
then well Houston we have a problem. Present time is only where you
consider it to be for none of us are actually in any time as it is within us.

I could hold up images of scenes from 1926, 1944, 1935 and 1998 all at the same
time side by side and even 2025 at the same time and all I would have to do is
shift my attention to which ever time and decide which one is now or consider
all of them to be now and timebreak them all at once as it is all up to me.

I could make this moment in 1998 look semi transparent like a mental image
picture that is mentioned in the DMSMH Book One and then make the year 2025
seem as solid and as real as can be like most us would consider now to be when
actuality all of the scenes in past, present and future could be considered as
now. Now really is not even in any time is it?  Did I miss something ?

If all of this Universe were put into a large bowl of water and you stuck your
finger in the water and said this is the year 2001 BC then stuck your second
finger in next to it and said that is the year 2001 AD you would still be
looking at both times right now.

I have done NED and other SCN processes that were sold to drag on and on and
on like the carrot suspended in front of the donkey's nose or the drug to keep
the junky a willing slave of the pusher and it was fun at first but  soon
realized that I could spend everything ( time and money) for the rest 
of my life and
still never get the carrot...... it was freedom for sale. It is more like "
for rent " for you never really get to keep it.

Freedom for sale is the most despicable crime in this universe. When the Pilot
says that he is the best they've ( SCN ) got, doesn't that say something about
SCN. While on SCN Staff the motto was " We are playing the biggest game on
the planet , Lets win it ! ) the exploitation of mankind and freedom _is_ the
biggest game _and_ the most heinous. But it is not just the SCN Orgs. They have
competition. Step back for a moment and look into the bowl of water and
describe what you see. It's right there in front of you.

When the going gets tough the Pit bulls call a Scientoligist. When the going
gets tough the true TROM users let the tough get going. Bye bye now. Have a
nice trip and see ya next fall.

The SCN definition for the Price of Freedom is constant alertness, constant
willingness to fight back. There is no other price. ( AHMC-1, 6012C31).

That's nice if you want to spend all of eternity constantly fighting or
compulsively game playing ( same thing ).  TROM continues to rip my mind to
shreds with the certainty that there is an end to the barriers that hold so
many close at hand. There is no need to fight anything. Just simply take it
apart and be done with it .

It's like deciding ........ do I want to swim across the North Atlantic in the
dead of winter and never make it ? or take a First Class seat on the Concord
across and arrive in time for lunch.

There are many cognition's to be had with TROM by simply reading the materials
like you say Ray. Keep at it Ray you're doing great. You too Judith ! 
and so will I.

Randy Nicholson

***************************************
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:12:47 +0000
To: Allen <speaker at asc.org>
Cc: trom-l at newciv.org, tech at asc.org
From: Judith Methven <jude at meth.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: workability

In message <199810251757.JAA22652 at proxy3.ba.best.com>, Allen
<speaker at asc.org> writes
 >At 03:51 PM 10/25/98 -0500, Robert Ducharme wrote:
 >>At 22:17 25/10/98 +1030, Ray Harman wrote:
 >>>Hi,
 >>>I have just read Honzo's post.
 >>>
 >>>Although I could not very far into TROM, the idea in the manual that
 >>>there is only present time, I cognited on this for myself while on level
 >>>two. It forever changed the way I think: it does make it possible to
 >>>sneer at the bank!


I have done lots of clearing, and the more I do, the more amazed I am to
realise a bit more about the truth that everything is created by thought.

In clearing, I have found that I'm only ever changing present patterns
(since that is all that currently bothers me...all that can ever bother
anyone is a pattern or thought that they are currently thinking about,
or currently hold).

Patterns and postulates are things that are happening now...affecting
one now. As soon as you change them in the present, the problem
disappears.

So, you only ever have to worry about the present, because the thought
patterns now are the only ones that ever matter.

In fact, the more I clear, the more I find that there is only 'now'.
That's quite nice, because now is much more handleable than 'eternity'.

I also find, that as I clear I am finding out more about profound
truths...they make me laugh...they are really very simple.

(The truth is whatever works for you. :-)   )

Life is a paradox, we all operate by the same set of rules, and yet we
are all free to be completely different. Wonderful!

Judith

***********************
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:09:15 -0800
From: Randy Nicholson <bnb at best.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Judith Methven <jude at meth.demon.co.uk>
CC: Allen <speaker at asc.org>, trom-l at newciv.org, tech at asc.org
Subject: Re: workability


The issues I didn't realize I had until they were gone with time since using
TROM have been disintegrated. Timebreaking simply sorted time out for me and
helped me remove myself from it all together.

I also lost my obsession with "getting through all the levels of TROM " as
soon as possible.

The peace I feel now and the calm are indescribable. Directing pure thought
where ever or to when ever is awesome to say the least.

Now I feel that I can continue with TROM comfortably at any pace I want.

One of the reasons for starting TROM in Dec of 97 for me was to regain my
exteriorization abilities that I had slowly lost since 1982. I mainly wanted
to just be out of my body. I never planned on being exterior to "time" and
the rest of this Universe. I am looking forward to more welcome surprises
yet to come.

I have also noticed abilities returning in the area of communicating to other
people as well. The response from others has changed dramatically. I don't
plan on doing anything other than TROM. I have always agreed with the idea
that if it is working or producing results then keep doing what ever it is
that you are doing


Have fun
Randy Nicholson

******************************
From: "Srdjan" <kikers at beotel.yu>
To: <trom-l at newciv.org>
Subject: Re: workability
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:46:16 +0100

Dear everyone,

This is most fascinating. Where can I find more about CS - i.e., HOW do they
do these kind of miracles?

Thanks,

Srdjan

(You can e-mail me privately if others think that is not what Trom-L is
about.)

 >My companion was raised by Christian Scientists, and so I have had the
 >opportunity to witness many amazing events in the lives of her 
parents. Malignant
 >melanoma (my diagnosis, from the massive open patches on his skin) 
manifesting
 >then disappearing from the face, ears, and body of her father. The same man
 >(several years earlier) walking out of the hospital a few days 
after his pick up
 >truck was hit head on by an 18 wheel tractor trailer - x-rays showed multiple
 >broken ribs, internal bleeding, spinal fractures, but when the 
swelling subsided,
 >and before they could apply casts and braces, he quietly left. Of 
course he never
 >had any follow up, so maybe he never really healed ;-)
 >
 >Point to all this is that the main doctrine of Christian Science is that
 >perfection is the only truth, and that anything "imperfect" is only 
an illusion
 >to be transcended. The only "evil" is the belief that matter has 
any persistence,
 >or life of it's own apart from good/God/truth. By attuning 
themselves with the
 >idea of "truth", wholeness, perfection, etc. the adherents weaken 
the illusion
 >and manifest "truth". (i.e. the broken bones were illusion,  there 
is only one
 >body and that body is perfect) Also that there are only one set of 
"ideas". Our
 >body is the manifestation and reflection of the one and only body, which is
 >perfect. With disease and physical suffering rampant in those 
times, the writings
 >lean heavily on physical "healings"
 >
 >I realize that we could get into intense semantic discussion here 
as to defining
 >perfection, truth, etc. My own discomfort with C/S has to do with 
it's biblical
 >roots and it is steeped in the language and customs of when it was 
written (late
 >1800's), but the founder, Mary Baker Eddy viewed the Bible as a 
codex of a sort,
 >and reinterpreted it as a sort of clearing tool to experience the 
"truth" as all
 >that is. She states that we have never been other than clear, but 
our  houghts
 >have clouded our perception, and we look to the MEST universe for 
"evidence" or
 >proof of our delusions.


************************
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:49:46 -0800
To: "Srdjan" <kikers at beotel.yu>, <trom-l at newciv.org>
From: Allen <speaker at asc.org>
Subject: Re: workability
I

At 09:46 PM 11/3/98 +0100, Srdjan wrote:
 >Dear everyone,
 >
 >This is most fascinating. Where can I find more about CS - i.e., HOW do they
 >do these kind of miracles?

The Founder and Author is Mary Baker Eddy. Check the Internet.

Her book is Science and Health, With Key to the Scriptures.

In the USA, the organization is the Church of Christ, Scientist. Often
there is a verbal enumeration on the name, as, Third Church of Christ
Scientist.

On Wednesday evenings they have a "lay" (non-minister) reading, and then
members of the audience stand to give testimony. You sometimes hear
wonderful things.

They maintain public-access Reading rooms staffed by volunteers.

Two of my associates are CS, one an officer in the administration. If
you'll tell me your city and neighborhood, I'll get you the nearest location.

-0-


Allen, Speaker         |        speaker at asc.org
ASC Missions Group    -0-    http://www.asc.org
Articulate Management  |  http://www.artman.com
--


-- 
        Ant                                Antony A Phillips
        ivy at post8.tele.dk
                                          tlf: (+45) 45 88 88 69
                                          Jernbanevej 3 F, 4th
                                          DK - 2800 Lyngby
Editor, International Viewpoints (= IVy). See Home Page:
http://www.ivymag.org
Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l,
previous-life-scio and IVy lists
--



More information about the Trom mailing list